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thesacrosanct on his post about the issues in illegal immigration. It got a bit long so I decided to post it on my journal.
enjoy
First off the problem with Neal Boortz and many other would be political commentators, is they present appealing sounding notions that fall apart when faced with the reality. He presents the same reactionary policies that so many before him have. It presupposes the problem with illegal immigration is so bad as to actually be a threat to people in general. This is not the case. Does it present some challenging issues, yes. Is it making you any less safe when you walk down the street, no. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have no interest in stealing or hurt from you or anyone else. They want to work and make enough money to bring their families out of the crushing poverty in Mexico. He is using that fear of the people we don't know to increase his listenership and sell some books or articles. Nothing new there. Nothing accurate in his statements either but that is to be expected.
1. Close the borders. Not next month. Not next week. Now. Right by-God now. Send the National Guard. Send American troops. What are they for if not to defend the borders of this country? Start stringing the barbed wire. Patrol with dogs. Do whatever needs to be done, but shut the border down.[I've been all for this for a long time, except I'm for a physical wall. I bet with the money earned from #3 below you could organize another US Army division. Make it like Korea, if you volunteer for the division you get to choose your next assignment. That would make people want to serve in the unit, and it be stateside no less.]
Okay, on point one I am not sure where to begin. First off the cost of maintaining a complete shut down of the 1,951 mile long border is so large as to border on being worse than the supposed problem. To maintain the level of presence required would take 10,000 to 20,000 soldiers in a division minimum. The Army only has 10 at the moment. With them involved Iraq, the possible conflict in Iran, the occupation of afganistan the border in south Korea and the various other military commitments around the world they are going to be hard pressed to come up with the force to meet that. They would need to make a new division with more people which their having a hard time recruiting right now anyway. Also the monetary cost could be measured in billions. Also approximately 350 million people every year come across the Mexican border legally. The level of commerce and tourist dollars you would eliminate would be so large as to be staggering. Lastly the border is pointless. As it is surrounded on either side by ocean we see a sudden influx of boat traveling illegals. What are we to do then, increase the coast guard roster too? Where are we getting money for all of this? Wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere on something thats a real problem?
2. Immediately pass legislation providing for harsh penalties for any and all businesses and individuals who hire illegal aliens. No half-measures. Make it hurt. Two weeks ago immigration officials arrested over 1000 illegal aliens working for one company that makes pallets and shipping crates. The officers of that company should be headed to jail, and the company should be seized by the government and sold at auction with the proceeds being used to pay for securing our border. Put employers in jail --- take their stuff. Let them know that this is serious and that hiring illegal aliens is tantamount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy. The hell with their campaign contributions. Fine them and jail them. Make 'em scream. As for getting these jobs done? Pay a wage that will attract Americans. It won't hurt. The majority of people working in agriculture and construction in this country are citizens. They'll do the work.[Been for this for a while in all fairness. You can't just penalize the workers, you have to go for the employers]
On the second point I believe there is some middle ground here. First off the laws concerning the hirering of illegal immigrants can be quite harsh. They get a steadily increasing level of fines for every time they are caught doing so. When dealing with companies and corporations it becomes very hard to go after them with a jailable crime due to the inherent liability shield involved in corporations. Rather stick to hurting them place where it counts. Increase the fines if you like but money is how you punish companies generally.
3. Heavily tax all wire and other transfers of money from illegal aliens to their homelands -- or just take all of the earnings! . If Mexico is getting $20 billion a year from illegal aliens in the U.S., seize about 30% of it. Call it a fine. If you can show that the money was earned here illegally there would be absolutely nothing wrong with taking a bit of it when it is sent back to Mexico to shore up Vicente. Look ... if you drive by a car and solicit a prostitute the cops can confiscate your car. You were using that car in the commission of a crime, it can be taken. If you sell illegal drugs the government can confiscate the money you earned selling those drugs ... and the government can do it under asset forfeiture laws without even proving that you were guilty of a crime. All they need is a reason to believe that you committed a crime. If, in fact, you earned that money legally you can sue the government to get your money back. Same rule for illegal aliens. Confiscate their cash. Take their paychecks. That is money earned during the commission of a crime. If they can prove they earned it legally, let them have it back. This would be a lot of money that could be spent on border and immigration control. [That's a new one, and there was a bill in Georgia that was defeated that had this provision. Sounds good to me.]
The third one is flat out illegal. Seizing funds with out due process of law is illegal and ethically unsupportable.
4. Put an end to providing all but emergency social services to illegal aliens. No food stamps, no welfare benefits, no access to taxpayer-funded government schools ... no taxpayer-funded government services except for life saving medical care. [I've been for this for a long time]
I would agree in some parts here. Welfare benefits should not go to illegal immigrants. But by law it should not happen anyway. Perhaps increased funding can be given to police welfare fraud. As to the schools issue well this is not so clear. First off the 14th amendment to the constitution actually says if you are born here then you are a citizen. So all the children of all the illegal immigrants who have been here long enough for their kids to go to school have a right to go to those schools. Also due we really want to be in the business of telling children who want to learn, no matter their nation of origin, that they need to go elsewhere. I will always support a child's right to go to school unless he is carrying a gun or some other actual threat to safety.
The real issue here is the illegality of the way these people enter the country. The problem here is they don't have a viable alternative. The economic conditions in Mexico are really bad. Have been for decades. And entering the united states as a worker or actually immigrant is remarkably difficult. There are no more than 120,000 people allowed into this country from the western hemisphere as immigrants legally in each year. Others must go through some rather arcane processes just to get a work visa that may end in a few months. Unless you are a skilled professional we don't want you apparently.
Here is what I purpose. Loose the quota or raise it to a half million every year. Make citizenship easier not harder. Make it a bonus if you participate in the system.
Require proof of Citizenship from their country of origin.
That they do not have any communicable diseases(no ebolla please)
A hundred bucks for the processing.
Swear the oath.
Also make the process take 5 days. If you are not going to find the records in five days through electronic search then chances are if there is something wrong it will be months before you realize it. By then it is to late. They should also be issued id that must be really hard to fake and reported when they get a job. After five years the id is not needed. Congratulations your a citizen, who pays taxes. Obeys the law and oh yeah contributes to the economy. The financial and cultural exchange between national neighbors is important to cementing the peace in any region. Even this one. By allowing an easier commerce and exchange between us and Mexico we may actually improve conditions in Mexico there by making the issue also less important.
thesacrosanct on his post about the issues in illegal immigration. It got a bit long so I decided to post it on my journal. enjoy
First off the problem with Neal Boortz and many other would be political commentators, is they present appealing sounding notions that fall apart when faced with the reality. He presents the same reactionary policies that so many before him have. It presupposes the problem with illegal immigration is so bad as to actually be a threat to people in general. This is not the case. Does it present some challenging issues, yes. Is it making you any less safe when you walk down the street, no. The vast majority of illegal immigrants have no interest in stealing or hurt from you or anyone else. They want to work and make enough money to bring their families out of the crushing poverty in Mexico. He is using that fear of the people we don't know to increase his listenership and sell some books or articles. Nothing new there. Nothing accurate in his statements either but that is to be expected.
1. Close the borders. Not next month. Not next week. Now. Right by-God now. Send the National Guard. Send American troops. What are they for if not to defend the borders of this country? Start stringing the barbed wire. Patrol with dogs. Do whatever needs to be done, but shut the border down.[I've been all for this for a long time, except I'm for a physical wall. I bet with the money earned from #3 below you could organize another US Army division. Make it like Korea, if you volunteer for the division you get to choose your next assignment. That would make people want to serve in the unit, and it be stateside no less.]
Okay, on point one I am not sure where to begin. First off the cost of maintaining a complete shut down of the 1,951 mile long border is so large as to border on being worse than the supposed problem. To maintain the level of presence required would take 10,000 to 20,000 soldiers in a division minimum. The Army only has 10 at the moment. With them involved Iraq, the possible conflict in Iran, the occupation of afganistan the border in south Korea and the various other military commitments around the world they are going to be hard pressed to come up with the force to meet that. They would need to make a new division with more people which their having a hard time recruiting right now anyway. Also the monetary cost could be measured in billions. Also approximately 350 million people every year come across the Mexican border legally. The level of commerce and tourist dollars you would eliminate would be so large as to be staggering. Lastly the border is pointless. As it is surrounded on either side by ocean we see a sudden influx of boat traveling illegals. What are we to do then, increase the coast guard roster too? Where are we getting money for all of this? Wouldn't that money be better spent elsewhere on something thats a real problem?
2. Immediately pass legislation providing for harsh penalties for any and all businesses and individuals who hire illegal aliens. No half-measures. Make it hurt. Two weeks ago immigration officials arrested over 1000 illegal aliens working for one company that makes pallets and shipping crates. The officers of that company should be headed to jail, and the company should be seized by the government and sold at auction with the proceeds being used to pay for securing our border. Put employers in jail --- take their stuff. Let them know that this is serious and that hiring illegal aliens is tantamount to giving aid and comfort to the enemy. The hell with their campaign contributions. Fine them and jail them. Make 'em scream. As for getting these jobs done? Pay a wage that will attract Americans. It won't hurt. The majority of people working in agriculture and construction in this country are citizens. They'll do the work.[Been for this for a while in all fairness. You can't just penalize the workers, you have to go for the employers]
On the second point I believe there is some middle ground here. First off the laws concerning the hirering of illegal immigrants can be quite harsh. They get a steadily increasing level of fines for every time they are caught doing so. When dealing with companies and corporations it becomes very hard to go after them with a jailable crime due to the inherent liability shield involved in corporations. Rather stick to hurting them place where it counts. Increase the fines if you like but money is how you punish companies generally.
3. Heavily tax all wire and other transfers of money from illegal aliens to their homelands -- or just take all of the earnings! . If Mexico is getting $20 billion a year from illegal aliens in the U.S., seize about 30% of it. Call it a fine. If you can show that the money was earned here illegally there would be absolutely nothing wrong with taking a bit of it when it is sent back to Mexico to shore up Vicente. Look ... if you drive by a car and solicit a prostitute the cops can confiscate your car. You were using that car in the commission of a crime, it can be taken. If you sell illegal drugs the government can confiscate the money you earned selling those drugs ... and the government can do it under asset forfeiture laws without even proving that you were guilty of a crime. All they need is a reason to believe that you committed a crime. If, in fact, you earned that money legally you can sue the government to get your money back. Same rule for illegal aliens. Confiscate their cash. Take their paychecks. That is money earned during the commission of a crime. If they can prove they earned it legally, let them have it back. This would be a lot of money that could be spent on border and immigration control. [That's a new one, and there was a bill in Georgia that was defeated that had this provision. Sounds good to me.]
The third one is flat out illegal. Seizing funds with out due process of law is illegal and ethically unsupportable.
4. Put an end to providing all but emergency social services to illegal aliens. No food stamps, no welfare benefits, no access to taxpayer-funded government schools ... no taxpayer-funded government services except for life saving medical care. [I've been for this for a long time]
I would agree in some parts here. Welfare benefits should not go to illegal immigrants. But by law it should not happen anyway. Perhaps increased funding can be given to police welfare fraud. As to the schools issue well this is not so clear. First off the 14th amendment to the constitution actually says if you are born here then you are a citizen. So all the children of all the illegal immigrants who have been here long enough for their kids to go to school have a right to go to those schools. Also due we really want to be in the business of telling children who want to learn, no matter their nation of origin, that they need to go elsewhere. I will always support a child's right to go to school unless he is carrying a gun or some other actual threat to safety.
The real issue here is the illegality of the way these people enter the country. The problem here is they don't have a viable alternative. The economic conditions in Mexico are really bad. Have been for decades. And entering the united states as a worker or actually immigrant is remarkably difficult. There are no more than 120,000 people allowed into this country from the western hemisphere as immigrants legally in each year. Others must go through some rather arcane processes just to get a work visa that may end in a few months. Unless you are a skilled professional we don't want you apparently.
Here is what I purpose. Loose the quota or raise it to a half million every year. Make citizenship easier not harder. Make it a bonus if you participate in the system.
Require proof of Citizenship from their country of origin.
That they do not have any communicable diseases(no ebolla please)
A hundred bucks for the processing.
Swear the oath.
Also make the process take 5 days. If you are not going to find the records in five days through electronic search then chances are if there is something wrong it will be months before you realize it. By then it is to late. They should also be issued id that must be really hard to fake and reported when they get a job. After five years the id is not needed. Congratulations your a citizen, who pays taxes. Obeys the law and oh yeah contributes to the economy. The financial and cultural exchange between national neighbors is important to cementing the peace in any region. Even this one. By allowing an easier commerce and exchange between us and Mexico we may actually improve conditions in Mexico there by making the issue also less important.
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*ducks*
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Erm...ya know that is greater then the population of the United States and Mexico independently. So this makes me confused.
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Unless you are a "pure-blood Native American", your ancestors were illegal immigrants, too! Our country was founded on the ideal of providing a place of sanctuary for refugees and castaways. We do ourselves a disservice to deny appropriate means for immigrants to come to our country seeking what our forefathers did, a better life.
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So, another issue to address is tracking legal visitors to make sure they don't become illegal immigrants.
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Does that include yourself?
Check, pot.
Yes, unless you live in a border town where violent crime rates are falling less than half as quickly as in the rest of the nation. In fact, as illegal immigration moves away from previous points of concentration like El Paso, the violent crime rate has actually increased in many border communities, remarkable given the large nationwide downward trend in violent crime.
[citing results of http://www.dallasfed.org/research/papers/2003/wp0303.pdf]
So yes, there *is* a correlation between illegal immigration and violent crime. Saying there isn't won't make it go away.
Actually, he has a pretty valid argument. Money earned during commission of a crime may certainly be seized. I don't understand the due process issue you raise; he didn't seem to suggest (in the text you quoted) that it be done without due process.
Ethical? Here I bring my own opinion into the fray. Illegal immigrants are knowingly violating the law. Calling it 'unethical' to fine them for their breaking of the law seems ridiculous.
This just doesn't seem so bad to me.
Now, more of my own opinion. Five days to process in immigrant application is laughable. I agree the current system is overcomplicated and obviously cannot deal with the level of immigrant applications. So, for a moment, forget the mechanism of immigration and address the question that people are apparently mostly afraid to voice:
Do we want to increase the number of immigrants from Mexico, knowing that they bring a higher rate of poverty, lower education, and a less-skilled labor force? Knowing that doing so will likely drive down pay rates for low-skilled workers and cost a disproportionate amount of money to make up the increased social and education services (this is already the case in border towns).
The danger as I see it is that we're building a bad situation by allowing the illegal immigrants to come in at such low wages and relatively poor working conditions. That is not an environment to build loyalty or crime-abiding citizens. It is one that encourages racism and classism. If we need a certain number of people to run our farms, etc, then bring them in legally. If that means the cost of fruit goes up, so be it. Better we have to adjust our economy than continue to exploit a group of people on one hand while vilifying them on the other.
Real effort needs to go towards understanding how many people the US can absorb, and at what reasonable rate. Immigration needs to be made more sane, and people that violate sane immigration laws need to be fined, jailed, or deported. The cost of absorbing such a high number of immigrants (much higher than ever before) needs to be quantitatively understood, instead of throwing around opinions.
But that's my opinion :P
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As to your point that the crime increased in the border region. Well your cited source says it went down and credits the border patrol. Which is it did it go up or down?
The government seizing funds with out a trial or due process of law is unethical. It is infact unconstitutional. Now if they prove in a court that these guys are here illegally and can prove the money was earned illegally, then maybe but that seems alot of trouble to go through for little gain.
As to the unskilled labor causing wages to drop, well there may be some merit in this, but the vast majority of the time they end up doing jobs americans choose not to. Why not collect taxes from them while they do this? The capacity of this country is not really in danger of being over run soon. Overpopulation is a global problem sure but I think we still have enough room to spare for a while.
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Well, I'm a Slack enough Poster that I lost my account. Does that answer?
I believe I was clear: violent crime nationally went down. Violent crime overall in border areas went down half as fast as it did nationally. Violent crime actually went up in some previously-low crime rate border areas as smuggling (humans and drugs, the rate of which are also correlated) spread out of previous hotspots due to tighter enforcement.
Well yes, but I still don't see that suggested. It seems you are reading into his suggestion.
Actually, this is fact.
Yup.
Well, yeah, that's why the crackdown on *illegal* immigration.
That's an awfully big assertion that I'd prefer to see backed up with facts. Move to a big city with a large urban poverty problem and see if you still believe this.
There's a large difference between absolute remaining capacity and rate of reasonable absorbtion.
My, my, for someone so vocally enamored of the position of devil's advocate, you are quick to read meaning into the opinion portion of things (versus a call to tone down the rhetoric, made mostly because I had a spare moment at work, and because hypocrisy, however minor, amuses me). I mostly agree with you in intent, I believe, but I also think the issue is more complicated than you make of it (and still yet different from what most people are debating).
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I'll take a crack at a specific point.
While I am very, very much pro-ZPG (zero population growth), I think it is naively selfish and irresponsible to the world as a whole to not offer people who want to be productive members of the USA the opportunity to do so, particularly in light of the above figures. 30 people per square kilometer is laughable. In fact, it is my personal plan to import from countries that have density problems any children I plan to raise.
From: (Anonymous)
Re: I'll take a crack at a specific point.
Yes, certainly there is higher resource overhead in maintaining a relatively low density population. Yes, I understand and sympathize with immigrants wishing to move to a place which sounds better. However, that is not the topic of discussion.
I am not worried about physical space. However, it is worth noting that many of the creature comforts and the quality of life I enjoy are more or less related to the light population density. There are also many problems associated with high population density. Again, however, this is not the primary concern that I believe is driving the current illegal immigration issue.
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Re: I'll take a crack at a specific point.
Sorry, USA geographic population distribution is one of my big pet peeves. I feel that much of the issues with US culture are ameloriated in areas in the US with distributed, moderately higher population densities, like Captial Region New York state. Key points for me, including effective public transport, are only available in areas that pass a certain population density point. When you *have* to live with your neighbor, I think people naturally become better neighbors, although I can certainly conceed that there is a logical break even point, or Mexico City, Rio de Janeiro, New York City and Tokyo would be the best places to live in the world, which they are quite demonstrably not.